because what it means we believe government does this and we believe government doesn't do. neither one was able to sort of stop themselves and realize we're actually the guys who cleared the room. we're the last two in the room talking about this. they needed to bring more people into the real reasons behind those decisions. >> rose: the other thing that interests me in the closing, they both kept to this very practical points. you did not see the city on the shining -- >> nothing's sorry. >> rose: it seemed they both deliberately did that because they wanted to make practical points about the campaign. >> they both are. as much as as everybody goes on and owe about president obama is rhetorical. neither one of them in truth is a wild-y eyed -- they both like talking about this stuff. >> go ahead, mike. >> no, no. josh, if you look at obama, if he has an adoring throng but if you look at the history of debates it's not his natural format. he had trouble with hillary clinton in the primaries. this is not his key can departments and i think that caught up with him. he's treme